How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

I agree. This is, by far, the best litmus test out there today to determine if one's a libertarian. It's funny how, for all the sound and fury over this debate, the main point is somehow always missed. These discussions always devolve into "Do It For The Children!"

In protest, I'm going to start my child smoking at age 5.

You probably will not see my logic in this because you don't believe that secondhand smoke is harmful.

Secondhand smoke is harmful. Try to convince me it's not. Seriously.

My grandfather used to smoke. He died at 62; I bet you can guess what killed him. Beside the point.

Anyway, when I was a kid, I used to spend a lot of time at my grandparents' house. The carpet smelled like smoke. The curtains smelled like smoke. The furniture smelled like smoke. When I left their house, my clothes smelled like smoke. *I* smelled like smoke. I would get a sore throat that would last most of the next day. I ended up with childhood asthma. I can't blame asthma on my grandparents' smoking, but it never bothered me until I'd been at their house.

My perspective then, since I believe that secondhand smoke is harmful, is that a smoker should be allowed to harm themselves but should not be allowed to harm others.

No one is allowed to randomly throw knives in a restaurant, because that's harmful. No one should be allowed to fill the room with smoke that others have no choice but to breathe, because that's harmful.

You might say, "You do have a choice. Leave if you don't like it." Then I should also just leave if I don't like someone throwing knives. But I don't have to worry about knives, because it's illegal for people to throw knives in restaurants. I shouldn't have to worry about breathing secondhand smoke in restaurants either.

The only reason the analogy may sound absurd is because you don't believe that secondhand smoke is harmful. Get hit by a knife, you see the immediate and obvious damage. Inhale a lungful of secondhand smoke and you don't see immediate damage, but it's happening nonetheless (albeit much more slowly than a direct hit from a flying knife).

Should a restaurant be free to allow smokers to smoke throughout their building? On the surface, it seems the answer should be "yes." But should they also be free to allow knife-throwing inside as long as they post a sign on the front door that reads "Knife-throwing Allowed"? No.

R*ck:
"You probably will not see my logic in this because you don't believe that secondhand smoke is harmful."

Is 'you' directed at me or Wulfman?

I've never liked the smoking bans that are popping up all over the place, particularly because I believe they have destroyed what could have been a lucrative industry: voluntarily, deliberately, and advertised as such smoke-free bars and pubs. Before, such a thing would have been unique and desireable to a wide range of people. Now, they're enforced and unremarkable.

Of course secondhand smoke is harmful. The problem is that smokers don't care all that much. I saw a comedian here in Richmond last month. He summed it up nicely as he puffed away on the stage.
"If I don't give a s*** about my own lungs... (draw) what makes you think I give a s*** about yours?"

Hey, I am sure some smokers care. Almost enough to quit.

Previous "you" referring to Rammage. :)

R*ck:
You ask where we should draw the line between self-responsibility and freedom. Do you mean responsibility to avoid smoke if I want to, or of smokers not to smoke when it will affect others?

We don't have to. That's the beautiful thing about the free market. You can open "R*ck's Non-Smoking Bar and Guitar Emporium" and I can open up "Rammage's Marina and English Style Pub and Smoker's Haven."

No one's rights are being violated. And everyone is happy. Except, of course, those who want to impose their preferences on everyone else (i.e. The Left).

I think this is a fantastic libertarian litmus test, especially for those who can't abide cigarette smoke. I also think that smoking bans are among the most egregious overstep of government today, second only to eminent domain. Oh sure, you're passive about smoking bans now, because you happen to agree that smoking is a filthy habit and you never want to be around it in privately-owned businesses. But someday the Left will go after something you *do* care about. And I'm going to laugh. Who knows? Maybe it'll be noise-abatement laws against guitar playing after 10pm. Or restrictions on how much WoW can be played on any given day to help alleviate obesity. I don't know where the next violation of our freedom is coming, but I do know that someday, you'll be up against one you don't agree with. But it'll be too late then, because people like you have been passive up until now in fighting this crap. Helmet laws. Seatbelt laws. Amber alerts. Smoking bans. HOV lanes. Rumble strips. S3x Offender Lists. Liquor laws. (Soon-to-be) Caffeine/Coffee laws. It'll get ya...eventually.

I'm curious as to how you and Jib get along on this topic. Here your England-traveling compadre is heavily favoring easing restrictions on illegal substances, and you are in favor of tighter restrictions on a *legal* substances. I mean, intuitively, doesn't it feel like we're going in the wrong direction with this cigarette/pipe/cigar business?

And dude...what is this? "My grandfather used to smoke. He died at 62; I bet you can guess what killed him." WTF? Appeal to emotion? From you? I'm sorry about your grandfather, but I am *not* making the argument about whether cigarette smoking is bad for you or not. Sheesh. It's bad. No shit. Smoking is lethal. So are Kevorkian death machines. Do you want to outlaw either?

Amber alerts? Maybe I am not as familiar with them as I thought I was - how are they a violation of our freedoms?

Amber alerts are of the same flavor, to me, as all of the other government-funded devices for controlling our behavior. Oh sure, they're "for the children" now, and that's all fine and dandy. Mark my words, within our lifetimes those amber alerts will be flashing names of suspects on the loose, and other nefarious activities. I know, I know, it seems like an eye-roller now. But, we'll see.

Rammage,

Are you also against the idea of the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list? I'm not sure I'm against Amber Alerts.

Besides, if we follow the slippery slope, and they're issuing Amber Alerts every 3 hours for more routine crimes, eventually they'll all be ignored anyway.

It's difficult to voice opposition to the Amber Alert system without sounding like a crazy, conspiracy-oriented, libertarian whackjob.

Without being able to see into the future, I cannot define exactly how the system will be abused in the future. But I am highly skeptical of one more "do it for the children" government expenditure that cannot be rationally opposed by anyone on the grounds that they are cold-hearted children haters.

Government programs that are virtually unopposable are the ones the need the most scrutiny, imho. But, needless to say, you and I made it through life just fine without an Amber Alert system in place. Is it really necessary today?

Rumble strips? Wow, even I have to say you've gone off the deep end on this one. You'll have to explain to me exactly how a rumble strip is an infringement on our freedom. You might as well say that the highway centerstripe is an infringement on our freedom. That just doesn't make sense.

I'm with you on smoking bans, btw. That is just another part of the great universal witch hunt to destroy everything that someone doesn't agree with.

But rumble strips? When I was a truck driver, I was taught how to use the rumble strip. One time I got caught in near white-out conditions in Wyoming, and being able to feel the rumble strip was the only thing that kept me on the road. I'm certain it saved my life that night.

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